4T60E REPEATED chain stretch problem

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aapple
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4T60E REPEATED chain stretch problem

Post by aapple » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:19 am

I posted this a year or so on TRNW, but the problem has reared it's ugly head again, so....
This one is one of my personal Cadillacs. '95 D-evil, 4.9. This was a repo car, and I bought it 6-7 years ago. Since then, I have had to replace the drive chain/sprockets 4 times, and the dang thing is jumping again.
Here's what's been done. Chain/sprocket sets replaced each time. Last time out, I went thru the whole unit, just to freshen everything else up. Changed VB/pump at that time for a LU problem, since every time it has been out, the converter has had a ring around the converter clutch. ALL of the oil deflectors are in place, so the chain is not being deprived of oil while driving.
Now..this 4.9 engine seems to have far more torque than any of the other Cads I've had with that engine....I've driven Cads since the late '70s, so I've had a few. I'm wondering if there is a super-heavy-dooty chain set-up that will withstand the strain. I've never heard of one. Also wondering if the chain/sprockets from the 4T65E would fit, assuming I could find the correct sprocket ratios. I am now considering just buying a core to build, and install, just in case there might something screwy about my original case/channel plate/support, etc.
Anyone have any ideas of why the chain on this turd keeps stretching, and jumping teeth on the sprockets?
Don't have a trailer hitch, no towing, and this is simply my bad weather work car, as I ride a Goldwing when the weather is right. I don't "baby" it, but I don't abuse it, either. I get in and go. I've had probably 10 other Cads with the 440/4T60 transmission, and never had any troubles with the chains on any of them, nor have I ever had this issue on a customer car.
Thoughts? Ideas?
Thanks! Joel
J. Adams
Duncanville, Texas


"It doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world"

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tranibob
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Re: 4T60E REPEATED chain stretch problem

Post by tranibob » Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:12 pm

Fun fact, I just went and look in the archives of TRNW and it was almost exactly 2 years since you made that post about it, missed it by 2 days. Wednesday will be two years.

Anyway this is the first time I see the part about the converter always having a burnt ring where the clutch ride, that might be what is causing this repeated chain issue. You had mentioned replacing the converter each time but I never thought of asking why you were replacing it. There must be a TCC slip code in the computer memory, if so then it will run on max line pressure all the time. My thinking since you have tried and checked everything is that the higher pressure cause the chain to wear out prematurely.

Another thing I was thinking that is a super long shot. What about a missing bi-metal element in the bottom pan? It is there to trap fluid in the side cover when hot, maybe it is missing and you don't have enough fluid on the side and it is leading to the chain wear issue?
Robert Moreau
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Sonnax Industries, Inc.
Laguna Beach, CA 92651
rmm@sonnax.com

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Re: 4T60E REPEATED chain stretch problem

Post by aapple » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:18 pm

Thanks Bob. Time flies when yer havin fun, eh? lol
The only code it has ever thrown is P073, intermittent coolant temp sensor. I know what is causing that....just haven't taken the time to correct it. The connector is damaged, and sometimes gets loose, and loses contact....which can cause a no lu condition. I suppose it could also be causing the converter to come on/off irregularly. I do know when I monitor the engine rpm when in lu, using the on-board data, lu will slip more than it should under medium throttle, but only when hot. On the morning drive in, it works fine. When the ambient temps warm up, it doesn't hold quite as well.The converter was a "regular" paper lined clutch, no viscous. Last time in, I put a woven carbon clutch converter, just for grins, with no change in apply feel at all. I'm seriously considering just getting a core and building it, I'm so tired of messing with this one...it is the original unit, after all, and was built by someone else before I bought the car.
I'll have to wait a few more weeks until I can get this thing pulled out again. Weather is still a little chilly here to be on a bike.

When our subscription to TRNW ran out last year, the boss man neglected to sign me up on the tech forums....just got the database access. Sure miss the email forums..... :<(

Thanks again..

Oh...the bi-metallic strip is, and always has been, in place.
J. Adams
Duncanville, Texas


"It doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world"

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Re: 4T60E REPEATED chain stretch problem

Post by tranibob » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:24 pm

Maybe it is not tripping a code for the TCC slip because it is not sleeping enough and since it is supposed to have a viscous, unless it slips more than 125 RPM for a certain amount of time it will think all is normal. But anyway something is wrong in there to keep burning the lining and since you have the other issue as well i think the idea of going with a core sounds pretty good. But with no TCC code my idea that maybe it was running on high line all the time is out the window. Unless the ECT code cause it to also go to max line but I don't think it does.

Too bad about the TRNW subscription, the difference in price between forums and database only is pretty small if I remember right. He would have had a much better return on his investment to get you a full subscription in my opinion.
Robert Moreau
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Sonnax Industries, Inc.
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rmm@sonnax.com

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Re: 4T60E REPEATED chain stretch problem

Post by barrycole » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:46 pm

Ok we have gone from chain stretch to a converter problem! I personally don't think that a converter problem is going to effect the chain stretching. We had this problem, back in the 125/440 days, and that was a defective chain which was updated by Morris Chains. I have never seen a chain problem really since those days. I did have one 4T60e with a bad chain and replaced, an it never came back, as this was a regular customer coming in for trans services. Are you installing used chains, or replacements?
Barry Cole Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Retired after 35 years

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Re: 4T60E REPEATED chain stretch problem

Post by aapple » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:09 pm

NEW Morse chains, and good used sprockets replaced each time. I'm using the correct chains/sprockets for the application. I've seen many with stretched chains, to the point of cutting into the accumulator boss on the channel plate, but never had one repeat like this. This car doesn't get driven that much, probably less than 5000 miles a year. I mentioned replacing the converter each time in an effort to give as much info as possible. The car doesn't shift hard, or have harsh engagements, and it's never set any kind of actual trans code.
J. Adams
Duncanville, Texas


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Re: 4T60E REPEATED chain stretch problem

Post by barrycole » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:59 pm

Have you contacted morse chain to see if they are having a failure problem with this chain? New chain failure rate, would have me wondering if they have come across this? Maybe you may have to go with a used chain, if you rebuild the same unit.
Barry Cole Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Retired after 35 years

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Re: 4T60E REPEATED chain stretch problem

Post by pricesgarage » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:53 am

just a thought if its setting a coolant temp code is the lock up even working wondering if its over heating the unit thats a odd problem you have for sure
does the chain or gears look hot or and weierd wear

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Re: 4T60E REPEATED chain stretch problem

Post by aapple » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:04 pm

Lock up does work...I can feel it apply, and watch the rpm data. It does slip a bit once I have driven it 25 miles or so, but it still applies. The unit has never shown any signs over overheating, other than the ring on the converter face. All of my driving is on the highway, to/from work, 40 miles one way. Only about 1 mile of in town/city each way...the rest is 75-80 mph Dallas freeway.
I would think if Morse/BW had an issue with these chains, the info would be out there for the Tech services(ATSG/ATRA/etc) to disperse to the rest of us peons in the field. I'm sure this is an isolated issue with this just being MY vehicle....lol
Thanks guys.
J. Adams
Duncanville, Texas


"It doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world"

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Re: 4T60E REPEATED chain stretch problem

Post by barrycole » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:59 pm

Of course it is only your car, as the old saying goes. Mechanics have the worst car on the block!! LOL Can you get a core for this old girl?
Barry Cole Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Retired after 35 years

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